[greenba]

I found this site while looking for information about the often-mentioned corrosive effects of methanol when burned as an alternative fuel in the average car. Mine is a 1999 Subaru Outback Wagon, 2.5L Boxer engine, that I converted to flex-fuel with a pulse stretcher (FFI Platinum). Runs fine on E85.

But looking long-range at the disaster looming because of Peak Oil, and wondering it we can make enough E85, I asked myself, why not go all the way to methanol, or some mixture of eth-meth-gas. Problem (?) the dreaded corrosion of methanol. There was a myth of ethanol corrosion that I came to understand as a myth for cars younger than 1985, and ignored.

But I see that you guys are doing something I had not heard of. And I didn't find a clear explanation on this site, but I guess that you are somehow injecting a meth-water mixture into the intake manifold of a gasoline-burning car. That's not quite the same as mixing methanol in my E85 fuel tank, is it.

And I did find a reference to corrosion due to "immersion" possibly in fuel lines. (Aluminum, I know, but what about other metals? elastomers?)

So give me the scoop, if you have it

Old, retired physics professor here,

Ben

[dvldoc]

Well Methanol is more corrosive but the reason it is not used is not because it is more corrosive it's because it's toxic. It's a know cancer causing agent, Methanol is toxic even absorbed through the skin. Is gasoline toxic, yes but not as a whole, it has chemicals in it that make it toxic.

Methanol as a whole is totally toxic, It just comes down to liability, It's just a lawsuit waiting to happen if this stuff is sold at the pump in high numbers by people who pump it or people exposed to it's vapors while pumping ect. We all know how sue happy we are in the US. You can swallow small quantities can cause blindness I believe it is 200ppm in a gallon of water but I would have to check. Denatured alcohol is normally poisoned with 10% methanol to make it undrinkable you chug that down your going blind for sure and will probably go mad to boot. 8 oz is enough to blind the average person. Nobody is going to sell such a product at the pump.

Plus the fact it burns with a colorless flame is a huge safety issue, At least ethanol burns with a blue flame.

You will never see it at the pump period.

A E85 approved system will still have issues with seals, o-rings ect, Things like quality stainless steel will not be heavily effected. Viton are fine for Ethanol but crap for Methanol, It will harden them and they will leak, E85 systems do not use EPDM seals.

Alcohol injection the mix skips your fuel system and goes strait to the intake, Most is flashed to vapor in short order due to it's low boiling point as it pulls the heat out of the intake air and surrounding metals. There is nothing left after the combustion process. It is not sitting in none compatible fuel lines and parts.

Of course I'm no chemist.

[greenba]

'preciate it! Thanks.

Ben

[greenba]

I did some further looking to confirm how bad methanol is for fuel systems in ordinary cars. I found mixed opinions about methanol causing cancer -- most saying no, but there is plenty of support for extreme toxicity. It causes symptoms like multiple sclerosis. I take the liability comments seriously.

A site devoted to O-rings said that neoprene is fine with methanol but not quite so fine with methyl alcohol !! Hmmm. I guess we don't all have the story straight.

I like your idea of direct injection and I see that you have lots of followers. Keep up the good work!

Ben

[Racer704]

Greenba

If your still here this why you wont see Methanol at the pump for the fact it takes almost 3 gallons of methanol to equal a gallon of gas and E-85 only need to enrichen the system 30% or so. If you were to build a motor to run only on E-85 you could make it almost as effciant as a gas engine in regards to milage thru compression and combustion chambers and better ignition systems and gearing it for the changes.

If your Scooby has a 12 gallon tank and you were to switch to methanol it would be like having a 4 1/2 gallon tank on gas. You would be filling up several times a day. Have you ever been around a methanol burning engine? I bet not because you wouldnt care if it was given away it would choke you in the car and all the people around you at lights.

In the winter time up north you would never get it started thats why E-85 drops to E-70 or so.It uses the gas to ignight the ethanol.In brackets racing at the local drag strips the guys that run Methanol have a small tank with gas and they use this to prime there engine so it will start easy, usally after it warms up it will fire up fine but its the stone cold engines that will flood up trying to start them If you ever watch Drag racing on TV when ever they start the Top Fuel cars there is someone squirting gas into the injector hat so it will start.
I bet your thinking why not add some gas like E-85 well gas will not stay mixed with methanol in the same tank.

If you were to go into a store that sells nothing but rubber and seals and ask for a seal that will work with Metha. you would be handed a large book and on several pages are listed all the differant types and grades of methanol and the seals that will work with them. I know i was surprised..lol

Johnny Barb